Episode 12 Revealed!

I notice on the BBC website they've updated the data we have for episode 12.

Now do I give a spoiler, or hint cryptically and infuriate everyone by not linking? Hmmmmmm... well, for readers of this blog it shouldn't be too difficult to work it out. The writing's on the wall for this one... or should that be the TARDIS? (Yeah, that's opaque enough to keep them going for a while, I fancy.)

I also notice that Geocomtex has its own website. That's another nice touch... no substance to it though. And the jokes are a little thin.

Has anyone else been watching the Who Spy postcards? I notice the sequence 23-7-801 is a familiar repeated meme. I wonder what significance THAT has.

So many questions, so few answers... I guess we'll find out. I'll meet you on Saturday for The Long Game.

Comments

[Neil]

I'm loving the meta-text that is being produced on these "fake" websites. It's a great idea and very nicely handled. The Geocomtex site isn't very good though, is it?

[Wayne]

It's actually 23, 6, 801, see my posting in "Who is afraid" thread.

That number sequence also turns up in the Who is Doctor Who? and GeoComTex websites as well

[Paul Songer]

Here's wild speculation for you :)

Maybe it is a clue to the anoraks, i read it as season 23, episode 6, 801 seconds (13:21) in.

I investigated this.

Season twenty three is Trial of a Timelord which does have an episode 6 (part two of timelash) at timeframe 13:21 Sil is talking to crozier about using the Doctor as a body for Kiv! The doctor is also not himself during this (admittidltly not unusual for the 6th) it did sebd a shiver down my spine (Wolf in sheeps clothing anyone?) but the 801 is precise and doesnt match with any one phrase or sentance. However there is significance if you see it.

Maybe its book 23 chapter 6 page 801 (big book :()

Or story 23 (no episode 6 in the ark though :()

Perhaps RTD likes winding up nerds!

[Phil]

Could the 23 be as in November 23rd? It's certainly a significant date for the series.

Can't immediately think of anything that makes sense for the rest though, but the 801 might turn out to be something really cryptic which involves adding ten to eight or something.

Very interesting...

[Phil]

I just Googled and discovered that 801 is the telephone area code for Utah. Coincidence?

www.publiclibraries.com/utah.htm

[Joe Beck]

The web design on these fake sites is appalling. They spent millions on the series - you'd think they could afford a decent desinger.

[Reinder]

Well, the Conspiracy website looks just like a nutter site would in the real world. Geocomtex, on the other hand, should have a more professional experience. After all, the company pilfered broadband from the little green men, so it should be a very large company in the present already.
UNIT's website looked unrealistic, but that's what it looked like on the show. And it was kind of fun to pretend to launch a missile at Downing Street 10.

[Wayne]

Some more pointless trivia, surrounding that elusive number sequence 23 6 801.

Room 801 is (or was) the MoD's Metropole Building, an old prestigious hotel near to MoD Main Building, reports of unexplained fast moving radar "blips" were collated from military air traffic controllers at major RAF bases. However, quite bizarrely, Room 801 lives on in a song by Dorset Progressive Rockers Galahad who also named their website after the top secret UFO research office in Whitehall!

Bizarrely, Joss Whedon was born on 23/6

[novachild]

Not sure if it's any significance at all, but the numerological equivalent of 236801 is 2.

[Wayne]

I think the whole number sequence thing is probably a production office "in joke" as it doesn't feature hardly at all (as far as I can see) in this series. But it has been fun...

[Martin]

Having finished my exams and having nothing better to do....

I've also looked into the number thing, and had a brainwave (at 3.23, in the morning no less...) I think its a bad wolf referance....

that being the numbers 23.6.801, which have appeared in rose, fathers day and empty child as far as I know.....

What got me was that in fathers day they appear on the psalm board

and seeing that for number crunching nothing beats a bible....

(also saw this at outpost gallifary)

Quote:
BinaryJustin: How far ahead did Russell plot his storylines? I mean, did he stop at the final episode of Series One or were all the writers of Series One aware of impending plotlines within Series Two? p.s. Could you give any clue as to what the numbers 23, 6, 801 mean?
Rob Shearman: No idea about the numbers at all. I didn't know the significance of Bad Wolf either until I asked Russell bluntly - he just enjoys threading stuff like that in! The series Bible we were sent before Xmas 2003 gave extremely vague story breakdowns of the first season - the majority of which are now very out of date! The concept of a second season was something we didn't want to talk about for fear of jinxing it!...

ok I am that bored....

First off, book 23, Isaiah. I couldnt use 801 in chapter 6, not enough words but 23/2 =11.5 so I looked at chapter 11 out of intrest, verse 6 this is what I was greeted with... "The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. "

Wolf in sheeps clothing, an evil the doctor knows but thinks is incapable of harm (or alternativally dead?) If the slitheren doesnt turn out to be the revalation in boom town (unlikly granted) this could have significance

the number 801 is also relevent, I came accross a site claiming that chapter 801 was lamentations, 4 and saying this was linked with the utah telephone line, which does in fact work with dalek, which took place I believe in Utah, and there is a link on the geometrix site, look for the telephone number of van stattons company helpdesk

http://www.greaterthings.com/Word-Number/801-Lam4.htm

what strikes me is verse 6 reads "6 For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her."

is the child who leads mentioned in isaiah rose?
is sodom meant to be the time war?

also....

Quote:
The only explicit references to any letters of the Greek alphabet in the surface text of Scripture are from the verses in which God declares I am Alpha and Omega. This gives rise to what is without question one of the greatest identities to emerge from the intrinsic alphanumeric structure of the Greek language. The value is:

Alpha + Omega

= 801
http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_Gematria.asp

(this stems from the ancient greek and jewih languages being numerical in nature, and what clumps of words/numbers mean)

is omega bad wolf?
or more likly is it taken as a referance to the time war? the begining and end of time?

furthurmore.... thats probably what is meant as the 'bad wolf scenario' dont ya think?

also, psalm 23 is the lord is my shepard, I'll presume you can figure out for yourself how that works with a wolf in sheeps clothing, and fits quite nicely with the quote from Isaiah.

that probably has the most relavance considering that it was on a psalm board after all...

finally does anyone know what the 801st word of the bible is? my moneys on adam....

Do I win a prize?!

[Ian Davenport]

Some fascinating stuff there; I particularly like the Alpha + Omega = 801 relation. I wonder how deep into this kind of thing RTD dug whilst doing research for The Second Coming? Omega might be a couple of years late for his traditional anniversary appearance, though.

This months DWM cheekily discounts some of the speculation, since they've had access to most of the script, and rule out Fenric and the Toymaker as I recall. The way they're saying it's not specific 'classic' villains suggests it might be another one, though. Unless there's a leak in the next eleven days, this could be the last great secret of the season; except for exactly how many of the TARDIS crew survive the finale. Looks like an eventful couple of episodes.

[Andrew]

Sorry to spoil the fun, but the 801st word in the bible is "was".

[Paul Songer]

My personal theory:

Some could regard this wild speculation as spoilerish but in that case why read this topic :P anyhoo

SPOILERS:

The Parting of the Ways - interesting that. We know Rose stays with the doc so thats not it. It could be regeneration but that doesnt seem quite right. Hmmm parting what could that mean. Maybe something literally becames parted. One person or thing becoming 2.

RTD has said he would love to bring someone back, but it would have to be done "right". Maybe by hinting throught the entire series at his return?

RTD has also mentioned Dalek graffiti messages to the Doc. Maybe these arnt as hiiden as we imagine. Several of the bad wolf messages have been in graffiti and the daleks could manipulate time to place messages. They have worked with this person in the past and have a vested interest in him not returning. They were the last ones to see him before he was executed.

Two theories. Either the Doctor or the TARDIS is involved but NOT as the Bad Wolf but as the "Sheeps Clothing" the Badwolf inhabits either the doctor or TARDIS and will become "parted" in episode 13.

The person imprinted their memorys within the doctor in an unsucessful attempt to steal his remaining regenerations. He has lurked in the dark corners since, helping the doctor make difficult decisions which seem slightly out of character (abandoning rose to the dalek, trying to kill it, much more vehemance towards certain companions etc)

This person has also "inhabited" other beings in the past.

I give you the return of The Master. After all what is Holmes without his Moriaty and who better to return then a character most recently seen (in 1996?) as the doctors enemy.

I'll get me coat.......

[Ian Davenport]

Cool theory, and an interesting tie-in to the TV movie.
Of course, that does mean we have to start trying to make sense of the TVM. eg. did the Daleks deliberately botch the Master's execution, and the odd relocation of the Master's last resting place from the now-deceased Gallifrey. I'm not going near the simultaneous worldwide midnight at the climax, though. :)

Might also explain his judge-jury-executioner attitude towards Cassandra, and his new-found predilection for dressing in black. :)

[Ian Davenport]

Actually, that maniacal look on his face at the climax of The Doctor Dances, as per the picture on the left, makes me want to see CE playing the Master. This time, though, with a beard!

[tadda]

All the speculation about the TARDIS and the Master is interesting, but what about the Valeyard?

[Paul Thompson]

Of course we only have his word for it that he IS the doctor...

[Damon Querry]

Popbitch had an interesting piece in today's email newsletter about the true nature of Bad Wolf. I'm not going to post it here, unless there's general uproar about the tantalizing nature of this little tease, but it seems to make a modicum of sense to this observer.

[Phil]

It's happening...

http://www.badwolf.org.uk/

[Wayne]

If you go to the Disclaimer page and highlight that page, you'll find the following hidden text:

"Rose - Are you there? Are you getting this? You've got the point, haven't you? Rose...?"

Visit: http://www.badwolf.org.uk/disclaimer.html

[Phil]

Is the spoken voice in the French Chansons song part of the original recording? I suspect not, but I can't quite make out what it's saying.

[Wayne]

The spoken voice you hear is someone reciting a poem (I haven't had a chance to hear it yet, so apologises if all this is utter rubbish - The credit for this, incidently, goes to Charles Quinn):

The poem is by William Blake and is called "The Sick Rose":

O Rose thou art sick.
The invisible worm.
That flies in the night
In the howling storm:

Has found out thy bed
Of crimson joy:
And his dark secret love
Does thy life destroy.

[Wayne]

For those of you who can remember the trailers preceding the first episode of "Doctor Who" will recall that the Doctor was in a tunnel running away from a huge ball of fire, and then see the TARDIS take off just as it was engulfed in flames ...We have yet to see this scene.

Would also like to remind you a stanza from "Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf?":

"Now they all were safe inside
And the bricks hurt wolfie's pride
So, he slid down the chimney
And, oh, by Jimney
In the fire he was fried"

[Gareth]

The scene with the fireball in the tunnel. Was specially filmed to promote the series. A relative of mine was a police officer on duty, on the day it was filmed in Cardiff, and spoke to several members of the production team who told him this. I can't see any reason to lie about this to a Police officer who isn't a Doctor Who fan at all.

[Daryl Millar]

Shame about the fireball not being in the main programme as it was the coolest bit in the entire preview trailer and I've been waiting for it ever since.

[Daryl Millar]

Having just visited the Bad Wolf site, the singing on the front page seems to have some backwards stuff in it. Not having the knowhow of how to record it and play the sound backwards, does anyone know what this backwards stuff contains?

[Tim Chapman]

I can't make out that Blake poem on the site - but I am sad enough to recall that it was used as a computer virus code in a Chris Boucher scripted episode of 'Star Cops' way back when.
Personally, I'm really rather looking forward to the 'Bad Wolf' episode - shame I'll be out the country when it airs...

[Neil Perryman]

I'm convinced that it's Jackie. Watch her very first scene again. How suspicious IS THAT?

If it turns out the whole series is a) a big TV show within a TV show b) a dream or c) the Doctor isn't the Doctor then I will personally eat this blog.

And it *isn't* the Master either.

It's got more chance of being the Slitheen!

[e]

I just played it backwards. Nothing much different.

[e]

(By the way, I don't have a way to post the reverse recording, but if anyone wants it just send me e-mail)

[Daryl Millar]

Thanks for that, e. I shall take your word for nothing significant being in the backwards stuff. But maybe the idea that it's largely the same forwards as backwards is a clue in itself? A beginning and an ending?

I like the theory on the site that the Tardis is trying to use some of its mind-altering powers to warn the Doctor of something. But if Bad Wolf is a warning then why doesn't the Doctor recognise it after all the times it's been mentioned? I've heard that this is partly addressed in this week's episode.

With all the clues (or misdirections) about wolves being signifiers of life, death, endings and beginnings it would seem that the Bad Wolf may be tied into the Doctor's regeneration. But the regeneration coming up or the one immediately before the current series started?

This is all very fascinating and it won't be long until we find out. But I will be amazed if they find some way of working all the reality TV stuff into it in a compelling way.

[Sam Gough]

I'm so convinced its the valeyard, season 23 trial of a timelord , season 6, the doctor is on trial for the same charge, .Still working on the 801.

[Stu]

Horribly, annoyingly, I know who it is. Damn you IMDb with your full cast listing!

[Daryl Millar]

Don't trust IMDB too far. I mean - Norman Lovett?

[Wayne Barry]

Isn't it odd that "James Melody" has only 1 IMDB listing? Maybe it is a pseudonym for someone? Possibly an anagram, which the production office of the 1980s were fond of doing to hide a certain actor's identity.

Is it significant that the name of the character he is playing bears the same name of a 1981 character? Or am I reading far too much into it?

[Pampusik]

"Bad Wolf" and "23 6 801" are repeated memes... maybe they never left Platform One...

[Wayne Barry]

Following up on my last post and a little Google search for "James Melody" brought this interesting tidbit up:

"...Evan James who composed the words and his son James James that composed the music for what we now know as the Welsh ‘National Anthem’… it was often refered to as James’ Melody."

Production team joke perhaps?

[Stu]

Daryl -- Anne Robinson is in the series -- anything is possible...

[James]

If Rose is Little Red Riding Hood, then the old one [grandma] would be The Doctor, who is eaten by the big bad wolf [??], and freed by the woodcutter [Jack?].

Or if the Doctor is Bad Wolf, maybe his death releases grandma in the form of David Tennant?

Can't wait to find out...

[Stu]

Just noticed that the IMDb page has been edited back down to include ...

John Barrowman .... Jack Harkness
Nicholas Briggs .... Daleks (voice)
Noel Clarke .... Mickey Smith
Camille Coduri .... Jackie Tyler

Which either suggests we did witness some nutty spoiler or it was the hoax this page seems to suggest ...

http://www.plasticbag.org/archives/2005/06/links_for_20050607.shtml

1. The actor with the musical surname has never appeared in anything else. His name is also the nickname for the Welsh national anthem. A pseudonym, then, perhaps?

2. The other actor -- who IMDb reports as playing a returning character -- has a surname derived from "wolf", based on language from the time period described by his forename (information that's available from the Beowulf link on the Beeb's Bad Wolf site, http://www.badwolf.org.uk). Another red herring/Bad Wolf reference, maybe?"

Hmmm ....

[Wayne]

The "other actor" that Stu mentions is Norman Lovett who provided the face and dead-pan humour of "Holly" in "Redf Dwarf"...and yes, it did seem highly coincidental that his surname was derived from "wolf".

Other "Bad Wolf" conspiracy theorists have latched on to an indie group "Toshk" (www.toshk.com) who are releasing a single, imaginatively called, "Bad Wolf" and have used the Internet and the whole "Bad Wolf" phenomena to enormous effect. Unfortunately, there are still a few people who think they are in on the act...

[Paul Songer]

toshk is bizzare! they mention a single called "damaged Goods" and apparently Bad Wolf will be done by Saturday!!

They also say something about a track between 12 and 13!

[Wayne]

If you type in the following grid reference on www.multimap.com or www.streetmap.co.uk (using LandRanger), you will find that it points you quite close to Cardiff, and the grid reference in question?

ST236801

Interestingly, TQ236801 places you in Shepherd’s Bush.

I am not suggesting that is where the "23-6-801" number sequence is derived from.

[Wayne Barry]

Oh you guys are going to love this. Not content to add Norman Lovett as "Davros" and "James Melody" as "The Watcher" and then remove them, Planet IMDb has done it again. Laura Frazer(who has no acting credits to her name) is apparently the "voice of the TARDIS"...okay!

Source: http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt0436992/guests

[Wayne Barry]

Oh, I have just notice that Kevin Eldon is "Bad Wolf"...hmmmmm

[Ian Davenport]

DWM hint that a "significant other from Dalek lore" makes an appearance, but I'd tend to discount Davros in favour of an updated 60s style Emperor, especially if someone has it in their head that Norman Lovett would be a good Davros. Funny, yes; evil genius, nope.

Laura Fraser (Henriette in Casanova) might be plausible as an z-s typo, though. Kevin Eldon could be a fun cartoon villain in a weak lemon drink kind of way.

[Wayne Barry]

Laura Fraser is probably a better bet. However, I don't have a lot of faith in IMDb, so I am not planning to hold my breath.

Though a talking TARDIS has to be a first...well we did have a Doctor that shed a tear.

[Daryl Millar]

Doctor Who will obviously beat ITV this week and next no matter what. It seems unlikely that Eddie Murphy will be no match for the BBC with Doctor Dolittle and Beverly Hills Cop. What on earth were they thinking? Especially with Beverly Hills Cop. Is an edited-down version of a 15 rated film really the best family entertainment that they could come up with before the watershed?

Anyway, the BBC now seem to be taking Doctor Who ratings victories for granted. They hardly bother to promote the show on-air at all - even for the big final two-parter. I'm sure that the last episode will get plenty of support, but wouldn't more people be likely to watch part 2 if they had seen part 1?

I would really like to see the current series go out with an overwhelming win. If 7.5 million is about the Who average then 8.5 million could be achieved with the right promotion. It seems obvious that showing trailers will get even more people to watch.

So why the lack of trailers even for Bad Wolf? Are the BBC embarrassed by actually showing some science fiction? Doctor Who didn't even feature in their "The One For Drama" trailers. At least there's been plenty of press coverage, but this might just reinforce the apparent BBC view that Doctor Who is tabloid TV rather than quality drama. So I really am hoping for some proper trailers next week.

[Daryl Millar]

Above Neil said that:

"If it turns out the whole series is a) a big TV show within a TV show b) a dream or c) the Doctor isn't the Doctor then I will personally eat this blog."

I may have misunderstood the Bad Wolf stuff in this episode since it was poorly-explained. I took it to mean that the controller was part of the Bad Wolf corporation and she was somehow sending out the Bad Wolf messages to try and contact the Doctor. So Bad Wolf was not a TV show, but it was a TV company.

Of course, there is that "they survived through me" mysterious voice in the next episode. This could be the Bad Wolf that the TV company is named after, but since this episode was called Bad Wolf I was kind of expecting Bad Wolf to be explained in this episode.

So unless Bad Wolf has another (and hopefully better) explanation in the next episode, Neil may just about be able to get off eating this blog on a technicality.

[Matt Volatile]

It *has* to be Davros, surely? He created the Daleks, so (had he somehow survived) could have regenerated them. Or re-mutated the Kaleds from scratch again?

[Ian Davenport]

I don't think the Bad Wolf references throughout time are down to the controller; her aim was to get the Doctor to the Gamestation, and she did that with the teleport, no messaging required.

This is starting to have Adam's fingerprints all over it, IMHO, as someone who was there when the last Dalek got zapped, possibly still with access to Geocomtex databases and whatever he took back from the year 200,000. If so, though, how he managed to get the 1987 and 2005 Bad Wolf references in when he was left in 2012 (and why) still needs some musing.

[Matt Volatile]

Actually, scratch that. I've been thinking about this more deeply, and I've come round to the "Bad Wolf is Adam" theory, mainly because:

"That's when it all started! One hundred years ago!" - ie when Adam had the data chip put into his brain. 'The Long Game' left Adam's fate pretty open, and it all seems to fit.

[Douglas]

To throw in the "Adam" camp.

Ask yourself this... why were ALL the shows in Gamestation based on 20th/21st Century TV?

Sure it's a joke - but seriously do we play the same games as our ancestors some 200,000 years ago. I mean where's hunt the Mammoth on TV?

But seriously why would all the shows be the same as our time?

yeah and sorry I've been away, been busy.

[rob w]

Would be someting of a massive letdown for many if it did turn out to be the show's worst actor.
Adam was too much of a dullard to make an impact. Without a time machine, he is pretty much stuck (tather thankfully) in whatever year he was dumped.

[Ian Davenport]

Well, Adam was supposed to be a genius, and maybe they won't use the same actor, though if the Doctor recognises him I guess they have to. Some other speculation...

They did establish that a little sample of time-traveller DNA has some Dalek restorative powers. It's not much of a leap to extend this. Adam's certainly travelled further forward/backward in time than any other human, bar one.

He admitted to squirelling away Geocomtex stuff in case things went awry for him there, in addition to anything he managed to get from Station 5, so it's not inconceivable that he has enough information and/or material to develop something to travel in time, or indefinitely extend his life.

Still don't know, really, but Davros has been done to death, IMHO, mostly badly, and it would be a little predictable. RTD does say that the Daleks aren't turning up next year, so maybe we're looking at a final bow for him (and them). Again. :)

[Neil Perryman]

It's Adam! At least I hope so - it might make some sense if it is (see my Long Game review). BUT the references throughtout the series simply don't make any sense whatsoever. I mean, if it is Adam or Davros or Fenric or even Paul Hayes, why did that kid grafitti 'Bad Wolf' on the TARDIS? etc etc

The only explanation I can see is this:

It's the TARDIS telepathic circuits warning the Doctor. So the kid doesn't write 'Bad Wolf' at all. He could have written 'F**k the Police' but the Doctor sees 'Bad Wolf'.

And the Power Station in Boom Town wasn't called Bad Wolf either. I mean - as if! It's as bad as allowing one to be built in the middle of a city center! What kind of name is THAT? So, again, we just hear that in place of it's real name.

I think you can explain all the Bad Wolf references this way, although why bother in Dalek when Rose and the Doctor won't hear the radio transmission?

Oh, let's face facts - it ain't gonna make any sense, is it?

Anyone for a last-mintue Face of Boe theory?

[Ian Davenport]

The only sense I can make of the Bad Wolf references is that someone's sending a vital clue to the Doctor by weaving the phrase indiscriminately into the places/times he's known to have been to, sometimes with more success than others. Somewhere up ahead the Doctor has to make a crucial decision as simple and as say between three doors with phrases written over them, and these clues are to tip his hand. Maybe the TARDIS is part of this, though you'd think it could be a bit more direct. I'm not sure that the naming of the Bad Wolf Corp isn't just another manifestation of the same thing, rather than the part of the cause.

The amount of explaining that's going to have to happen next week to answer all the outstanding questions is getting a little daunting, let's hope we don't end up with a season-end cliffhanger. Can't imagine that would fit in with the Christmas special, though.

[James]

OK - three quick theories, like throwing wet sponges at a target, which overlap in some ways...

1. The dalek didn't suicide in Dalek - but teleported to save its race {in response to the Doctor's claim that the species had been wiped out}. Maybe it used Adam's assistance to guide the human race for 1000's of years. This would explain the reality shows circa 2005 - 2112.

2. The Face of Boe and the TARDIS. After FoB's appearance, the TARDIS started going off course - nine years and ? miles in TUD, a year in AoL - both times taking the Doctor to an important point he would have missed otherwise. FoB was present at the 'End of the World', and in The Long Game - so could be playing the long game itself. Could it be that the telepathic TARDIS deliberately changes course to warn the Doctor?

3. The Face of Boe IS Davros. After the surgical experiments of Resurrection, Davros has discovered the secret of near eternal life, and as only a head was left in earth orbit in 1963 [Rememberance], it has developed into the large face we see today.

Oh course, all this could be too fan-like for a series that has nodded to the past, but ensured it never became an exclusive club.

Only five days till we know for sure [and two before genuine, informed spoilers emerge...]

[f3r613]

Ok how about this the bad wolf reference was inadvetantly left by the doctor himself, he picked up on the phrase from the side of his tardis when writing the virus to wipe information on him from the net(given to micky), the dalek downloads the internet and also the BadWolf Virus with it and everytime the controler tries to contact and call out doctor the phrase is replaced by the virus with the phrase "Bad Wolf", well its as likely as anything

[Ian Davenport]

Interesting idea, but if we are to believe Mickey's comments on the www.whoisdoctorwho.co.uk site, he never used the virus. This is somewhat substantiated since his own site is evidently still live. I'm sure somewhere on OG they're debating as to whether the site is canon, though. :)

[GC]

I think it's very unlikely that the Bad Wolf will be somebody like Omega/Valeyard/Fenric since this will really confuse everyone except the series' fans. (Not a good ratings-puller!)

In next week's Radio Times (on sale today) RTD said that he intended this final episode to "pay off" all the important characters that have been built up during this series, paying homage to all the episode so far. Both Jackie and Mickey are credited in the Radio Times cast list but Adam isn't, but, since Adam is a character that has been built up, surely he's got to be in there somewhere.

Who is the "God of Daleks"? (This references the very brief trailor for the final episode shown yesterday evening on BBC1.)

I also read on the official BBC Doctor Who site that RTD says that no one has actually really guessed the truth about the elusive "Bad Wolf" meme. I suspect the repeated numbers (23-6-801) might be the code to something and someone's been trying to make the Doctor aware of this.

I really don't have a clue who "Bad Wolf" is but I suggest the answer lies in the current series, not in the series' past.

[Graham Carton]

Just to add...

My automatic assumption about the voice that said "They survived through me" (from the trailor at the end of the "Bad Wolf episode)was that it was the voice of Dalek Emperor. However, if Davros finally became the Dalek Emperor, then why can't Adam or whoever.

On the subject of RTD's "paying off" of "built up characters", does that mean that Margaret Blaine's going to be back? (I hope not; as much as liked the Slitheen, they deserve a bit of a rest!)

At least this whole Bad Wolf thing explains the name of "The Appearance of the Repeated Meme" from Episode 2. Perhaps someone is controlling the "Bad Wolf" idea, just like Cassandra was controlling the Repeated Meme.

Personally, I like the idea that the TARDIS is placing the "Bad Wolf" messages as a warning. After all, it's the only thing that went everywhere the Doctor and Rose went. We know that it can get inside your mind and change what you see/hear (translating alien languages etc.) and now RTD has finally made the Doctor admit that it's alive. The fact that the TARDIS saved the day in Episode 11, whereas the Doctor didn't know what to do, implies that the TARDIS is much, much clever than even the Doctor. (I hope we do hear more about the idea that the TARDIS is alive because at the moment it just seems like a contrived plot device to save the day in "Boom Town".)

[dave]

ok. my theory is this. ok adam is the bad wolf. his code name ws badwolf when he was working with the museum collection. He went with the doctor to the future. had the implant here startes the "long game". he is returned to his time. he has knowledge of the darlek having been involved with the museum. They HAVE all been wiped out, but somehow he uses his knowledge, that collected from sattelite 5 implanted to reconstruct the darleks over many centuries. Then. some time in his distant future he uses jack, brainwashed of 2 years and "programmed" to take a capsule of genetic altering nanobots into earths distant past, the 1940's. here, after the initial glitch that the doctor helpfully puts right, they change the human genome . this happens continually for millenia, making the race seceptible to easy control through Tv and other technologies (geocomtex) that adam uses to control minds. This slows the development of the human race toward the 4 empire bussiness. not much time to finish all this, but that is the start of my theory anyway...

[david martyn]

oh, and to continue, the slythen aquired the surf board thingy from "somewhere". it was given to her by someone from the globotex, and it was them who instigated the bad wolf name for the3 power sation in cardiff. the name badwolf appears in all the episodes after the empty child because it is the name written into the human mind through the nanobots work. ( the ones propelled back from the future with the brainwashed jack). The "parting of the ways may actually refer, not to people moving apart, but the time lives diverging from the point where the Dr returns adam to his own time and he begins to use his knowledge of the future to change thins from the glorious 4th empire. ok not a dr who anorak, this all just came to me, but it all fits. now he is all powerfull having gorwn in power throughout the millenia, and is reddy to destroy the earth he now hates and ultimately the doctor as wel who he made sure was there to witness it and ultimately be destroyesad as well. ok supper ready, bye......

[Ian Davenport]

I don't really buy into this TARDIS warning theory.

1. Why would it put the warnings in places as obscure as the helicopter call sign and the graffiti on the poster? The TARDIS has a video screen, why doesn't it use that?

2. As warnings go, this is a pretty ambiguous one. What does it mean? Don't go near the Bad Wolf Corp? Investigate the Bad Wolf Corp? It's so meaningless that it doesn't seem to have had any effect on his behaviour, so far. Surely it could be a bit more helpful?

The other thing that struck me was that it looks as though it's being done in such a way that anyone casually observing the Doctor wouldn't realised he's being warned; it's only the repetition when it becomes obvious. Maybe someone's trying to send a message while trying to avoid another person noticing?

[dave]

oh, and that theory works within the series so you dont need any who knowledge beyond these shows.

[dave]

forgive me for going on, but just to explain a little more. The www.badwolf.org.uk site has a disclaimer. read the last paraagraph of it. the neuro-linguistic programing experiment refers to the nanobots sent back to the 1940's and breeding through us since. if you sellect the text beneath it there is a hidden message saying" rose - are you there? are you getting this? youve got the point havnt you? rose..?. this is written by the author of the site, from geocomtex. The questions and answers page has a question about "is your boss a complete nut" the answere reveals that the authors boss is the american bloke who owns the alien technology museum, this is adams boss. This is a threat from adam to rose. It is telling her, should she read it that there is nothing she can do, but to tell herself "bad wolf is not real..." By controling the population of earth through the nanobot genetic changes, and through the controll from badwolf corporation tv from satelite 5 he can conquer the population easily.

[dave]

And even more stuf....

Ok, when the hell did darleks ever have a god? to have a god you need a belief in something, unless that is how you have been programmed. Adam created a new breed of darlek from his knowledge of then from the museum. It is he and his meglomania that have made the new darleks "worship" him as a god. the darleks were all destroyed in a time war. the lone darlek confirmed this. Adan ha revived them as the Dr's most feared enemy, and one he can control to attack the earth. Rose and the doctor will fall out, because he will not go back in time to change the whole adam affair, or the nanobots during the war. She can not understand how he can let it happen knowing that it ws his own fault and having te ability to go back in time to save humanity and propell them to the 4th earth empire that will now never exist. lets face it guys, the earth is now doomed. there is no 4th empire for us to look forwad to because we are already infected in our own time with the nano-bots infecting us and deadening us like a virus.
jack brough the virus to earth unknowingly, brainwashed into doing it by geocomtech and to involve the doctor and make him complicit in the fall of the earth. did i mention that the bad wolf phenominon is because it is the human race have been programmed with the words in their minds so that bad wolf corporation will become all powerfull when the time is right. this is why you see it sprayed on the tardis in the 90's, appears on posters in the 80's, it is there in the human mind from generation to generation. adams supperior alien technology is sold through geotech. bad wolf is his way of transmitting and controlling minds. have i burbbled on long enough????

[dave]

the nano-bots may also be what has prollonged adams lif into the distant distant future. Adam used the doctor to achieve full control over the human race after he destroyed the satelite 5 news channels. The editor and the mushy blob thing were the only competition to his mind control by having control of all broadcasts. Bad Wolf corporation took over the startion after the collapse of satelite 5 to use it to further strengthen control of humanity.

[GC]

I think you've got a point, Dave. I'd forgotten about Captain Jack's "missing 2 years". The nannobot idea *might* be right, as well, after all, RTD does want to try and link together elements of the other episodes. I'm pretty sure Jack's mixed up in this somehow.

However, I don't buy the idea that "Bad Wolf" has been programmed into human minds by Adam, because how would it get into the minds of:
- a Victorian maid (born over 100 years before Adam);
- a Slitheen (given that it was her who came up with the name "Blydd Drwg");
- the Moxx of Balhoon (who talks about "a case of the Bad Wolf scenario" in Episode 2).

Perhaps it's Jack who's been posting the "Bad Wolf" messages. After all he did have a time machine, so he could have gone anywhere the Doctor did. He doesn't remember now, of course, because he's lost his memory. (Just an idea!)

[dave]

ok, fair point. had thought about these points. the victorian maid was telepathic and may have been able to sence rose's future, or have had the knowledge transfered to er through the gas monsters. The Mox of Balhoon is set in the far future after the darleks have returned. therefor his comment about it being another bad wolf scenario refers to the fact that satelite 5 will explode with people trapped on board as was going to happen in the end of the earth episode. The slitheen is another paradox. if the surfingthis was given to her, as an alien technology it must have been given to her ON EARTH because she was trapped there. I think it was geocomtec who supplied it to her, and perhaps she had just [picked the name up from someone human in her employ? she seemed to have no real idea where the name came to her from. Then again, is it possible that she is not seceptible to the nanobots influence. she did indeed begin to take on human charicteristics of empathy towards the end. maybe she too was being geneticaly mutated by the nanobots. had jack ever gone back to any other time in world history as far as we know?

[dave]

the time machine was supplied to jack by gecomtec to carry out the mission to the 1940's and to entrap the dr into the fall of earth. oh, and by the way, how did jack manage to get on board the tardis with a gun stuffed up his arse? i thought you were unable to take a gun on board the TARDIS, that it existed in a" state of grace?"

[dave]

AHHHHHHHHHHH! OF COURSE!!! THE VICTORIAN MAID PICKED UP ON BAD WOLF BECAUSE ROSE, BEING BORN AFTER THE 1940'S IS ALREADY "INFECTED" WITH THE BADWOLF GENE. ROSE WAS UNABARE OF IT, BUT THE MAID WAS TELEPATHIC AND SAW IT THERE IN HERE MIND.

[dave]

on the badwolf web site there is a disclaimer. the last paragraph reads: If you are concerned by the thought that the universe has been IRREVOCABLY altered by an enormous experiment in neuro-linguistic programming, then just tell yourself "the bad wolf is not real, the bad wolf is not real,the bad wolf is not real,"

[GC]

Very convincing, Dave! God knows how RTD can fit all this into 45mins I don't know.

By the way, to pick up on your State of Grace point, I think the point is guns won't *work* in the TARDIS, but you can take them in there. To be honest though, people have fired guns many times in the TARDIS in the classic series. The State of Grace thing was just made up in "The Hand of Fear" in 1976 to explain my Eldrad couldn't use his weapons in the TARDIS. It's just another contrived plot device that was ignored in subsequent stories, so I don't expect RTD's bothered about that!

[GC]

Oh, just one more question?

You may have established WHO the Bad Wolf is, but can you think WHY of all the things he could choose to call himself, Adam chose "Bad Wolf". What does it mean?

[Douglas]

okay.... I had a thought.
There's one Doctor Who star that millions of people out there will remember - a time traveller as well. One which would shock the Doctor.

Wait for it...

Bad Wolf - A wolf is what exactly?

You might have got it by now...

Bad Dog...

Bad Wolf = Bad Dog = K9.

There you go problem solved.

K9

[Ian Davenport]

Bad Douglas!

[Neil Perryman]

One last thought before I avoid this thoroughly fascinating thread just in case someone finds out and spills the beans:

a) A Dalek War

b) A Big Wolf Explanation (I hope)

c) Possibly a Jack Explanation

d) Scenes with Jackie and Mickey

e) A death and a (I pray) regeneration

f) most importantly of all: 44 minutes.

No pressure.

[Ian Davenport]

RTD is explicit (on the BBC site today) that Bad Wolf will be revealed in episode 13, and torpedoed at least one explanation above; sorry Face of Boe fans!

[Douglas]

Come on it HAS to be K9....

And the way he defeats the Daleks is even easier....

Following on from "Go to your room".

"Walkies" and directs them all out of the airlock.

:)

[GC]

I've just read the "That's Entertainment" posting. Sean Alexander implies that the Earth's population were described as "brainless sheep" in Episode 12. If this is an actual quote from the Episode, then maybe the "Bad Wolf" is a "wolf in sheep's clothing" - i.e. he is pretending to be a "brainless sheep" but is really in control.

In Episode 1 the Doctor criticised humans for having dull lives consisting of eating and sleeping. That's all sheep do, really.

[dave]

ok, think adam has chosen the name badwolf because it was his call sign when he was working for geocomtek in the museum. it also fits nicely with the notes on teh badwolf web site about the notion of a wolf trapped in a sheeps pen will kill indescriminately and carry on killing, confused as to why the flock wont (cant) run away. If this has been adams plan all along, to have revenge on the human race it would be an ideal situation for him to have generated through mutating people into mindless "sheep". K9 was well cool when i was about 8yrs, but im linda glad he was killed off. Bit like Poochie in that episode of the simpsons with itchy n scratchy.

[dave]

think the jackie and mickey credits might mean that rose returns to earth at the end of the programme? possibly also just a ruse to lead people a stray. for sure if adam was going to be in this last programme he wouodnt be credited or it would give the game away. did think it was a little unusual that jackie and mickey were mentioned on the bad wolf web site. A red hearring maybe? damn sure that jackie isnt going to turn out to have reconstructed the entire dalek race and be about to enihilate earth!

[GC]

OK. But I still don't see *why* Adam would do all this. In "The Long Game" episode he just wanted to profit from what he learnt on Satellite 5. According to this theory he's now a homicidal maniac! Surely even a Doctor Who script can't have a plot hole this big!

Oh, and I'm sure Jackie and Mickey will find a way of gate-crashing their way into Episode 13, even if their nothing to do with Bad Wolf.

[dave]

hmm, maybe he got a bit carried away? well if his badwolf corporation has taken over geocomtec he has control over human technology and human minds. If everyone was genetically predisposed to buy badwolf products then this would be the prifit element of the scenario. this is why in the long game the technology had not advanced the way it should have, because the human mnind was being slowly manipulated by badwolf. It was mentioned that there were no alien races involved on the space station or on earth because of strict imigration laws probably implemented by badwolf to ensure that aleien technologies would not be able to compete with those of geocomtec and therefore his control would not be challenged. As for the homicidal destroy the earth thing, well he was returned to the past by the doctor with the implant stil in his head. he would have been something of an outcast, perhaps a growing hatred of those who ostricised him, and the doctor who left him like that. He knew that what the doctor feared most was the darleks from his reaction to them in the museum. If he were to have his revenge on the doctor the ideal way to do it would be to reserect the darleks. Having converted the inhabitants of earth into sheep his ultimate control could be imposed through his dalek warriors and to enslave the population of earth through fear and with very little opposition. What is the ultimate profit after the money he has made, but the domination over souls, to be a god? And to use his wealth to achieve an end to the doctor.

[dave]

oh, and adam seems to have had an interest in genetics, alien technology and proloning life frrom an early age. check out the winning essay on the who is dr who site of micky's. guess who won....

[dave]

the name adam may also imply that he is intending to become a pattern for a new human race after erasing the old one. And just maybe Rose is supposed to be his eve? This has litterally just come to me, but, thniking on my feet, didnt it seem odd that the daleks didnt destroy her strainght away after the Dr had threatened to march into the middle of their fleet and fetch her out. Someone wants her alive.

[Wayne]

For those still confused by the “Bad Wolf” phenomena, The pass notes in the “The Guardian” may help (or not as could be the case)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1506757,00.html

[dave]

the mentioned bad wolves on the bad wolf website and how they relate to a possible scenario:

Anubis: He led the deceased into the afterlife, and also raised the dead. - daleks have been raised from the dead.

Fenrir: who would one day bring about the end of all things. - the destruction of the earth

BeoWulf: "Wearg" is a curious word, meaning either "criminal" or "cursed one". Adam is a cursed man since the implant recieved from Sattelite 5 and returned to his own time. became an outcast?

[dave]

maybe streatching a point, but rose (as in red) = red riding hood
bad wolf = big bad wolf.
red riding hood gets eaten by the big bad wolf and only released by the woodsman who chops open the wolf. Is jack the woodsman? or the doctor? or is this all just rubish?

[Ian Davenport]

I don't buy into the nanogene stuff, not least since Steven Moffatt admitted he made that bit up based on a half-remembered article on nanobots, so RTD probably had his arc worked out long before they hit the story.

Little Rose Red Riding Hoodie being eaten by the Wolf is fun, though I'm not sure where the analogy gets us.

[Menoptra]

In my day (ahhhhhhhh, poor old soul!) there were many different types and colours of daleks (I should know - I have a full size red one in my front room!). All the daleks we are seeing in this fantastic new series are the same and therefore have been given special identifiers under the eyestalks. Also they are WORSHIPPING. If they are worshipping something 'in their own image' then I think it must be the dalek from Episode 6 which at the end of the episode was mutating ('Into what?'......'I don't know'). Perhaps it transmatted itself away, carried on mutating into some variation of the Emperor Dalek and then created daleks in the same new BLING style as itself.
Also, I think the Tardis is trying to warn either The Doctor, or Rose, or both throughout this series (it did something similar in 'Edge of Destruction' - now I really am revealing my age!! This was a very WEIRD couple of episodes but showed how the Tardis was trying to warn The Doctor, Susan, Barbara and Ian.).

[GC]

Apparently Rose was wearing a red hooded jacket in Episode 1 (= Red Riding Hood)

[Mark]

I have noticed an interesting fact that may support the theory that the Dalek from "Dalek" is the creator god of the new race of religious Daleks. Geocomtex called this Dalek the metaltron. This could be seen as a pun on metatron - the voice of God.

[e]

I can't believe I never noticed this before, but there's a toy wolf on Rose's bed at the very start of Ep 1!!

[dave]

im not too sure how the tardis works to be honest. i know it has sent warnings before, but i dont know how it could have written badwolf in places like the poster in the 1980's and how the Moxx of Balhoon would know what a "badwolf scenario" was and is the tardis able to imprint things in peoples minds to get them to say stuff? dont understand how the tardis would have been able to change so many things and why they were so insignificant. could understand the spray paint one, but dont know how the others would be noticed.

the dalek thing. the daleks were all dead. the last dalek confirmed that. Going by the anubis refference that he was able to resurect the dead i think this is what has happened.

having come up with the red riding hood / big bad wolf idea, i am still no clearer as to what that might mean, but nice note about the toy wolf and the read hoodie. cool. maybe the daleks have eaten grandma? maybe grandma in Rose's mum? ha ha ha (!?)

[dave]

stil think "the parting of the ways" reffers to diverging time lines rather than people moving apart. this would suggest that someone else is traveling and changing time.

[Daryl Millar]

That's a good idea about timelines splitting. After The Long Game I thought that a time-traveller must have been behind it, because the only way that the timeline could be different from how it should be would be by a time-traveller's interference. The same with the subsequent 100 years of human development being supressed. Assuming that timelines don't change all by themselves, that is.

I know that some people here are avoiding all kinds of spoilers, so I will warn that I'm now going to discuss today's '2 days to go...' clip. The sound isn't great on my computer so I *think* that Rose says "I'll leave it to me". I shall take a leap in the dark and guess that Rose (maybe with the help of the Tardis) sends the Bad Wolf message through time to give herself a vital clue as to how to defeat the Daleks.

On the Bad Wolf site RTD claims that no-one has guessed it yet (apart from selected Bafta members and people who love anti-climaxes so much that they ruin any kind of tension by reading spoiler threads on Outpost Gallifrey and maybe newspaper reports. I'm trying to avoid both). This means that I can speculate freely and be proven spectacularly wrong on Saturday.

I'm going to guess that the "they survived through me" character is either the Emperor or the lone Dalek from earlier in the series - but is not the Bad Wolf. The Doctor is unable to stop the Daleks, but there will be a moment when Rose realises what Bad Wolf means. This knowledge will help her to defeat the Daleks (possibly through a parallel with the Little Red Riding hood tale). With the help of the Tardis she then sends the Bad Wolf message through time so that she has the knowledge when the time comes.

One last piece of speculation (all of this is guesswork and not informed by spoilers) - if the lone Dalek from earlier is the Bad Wolf, then it could be argued that he "ate" Rose be devouring her DNA and emotions. In some versions of the Riding Hood story the Big Bad Wolf is killed by the woodcutter slicing open the wolf and releasing Riding Hood and Grandma. If Rose frees or controls the part of her "eaten" by the Dalek maybe she can bring the entire Dalek horde to a halt. But that would mean that RTD is wrong when he says that fans haven't guessed what the Bad Wolf is - only that most haven't guessed how the messages were sent.

All of my guesses up until now have been well wide of the mark, so I'm going to enjoy being wrong on Saturday. I just hope that the next series doesn't feature something like this. I'd prefer to judge each story on its own merits, rather than feeling that I can only judge the success of the entire series by whether the payoff in the final episode delivers. Let's face it - if the Bad Wolf explanation isn't compelling or doesn't make much sense it will be more than a little disappointing, won't it?

[GC]

Doesn't sending warning messages to yourself from the future create a time paradox? Also, exactly what good have these "Bad Wolf" messages done? The Doctor and co. are in deeper trouble than ever before, so the warning hasn't really worked!

[Stu]

Has any one else noticed that Bad Wolf backwards is Flow Dab, which sounds a bit tech. Perhaps it's somehow code for 'Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow' ...

[GC]

Yes. And?

[Mark]

A new picture has appeared on the clues page of the Bad Wolf site. Roll your mouse over it and the floating text read 23-6-801. A-ha. We're certainly supposed to think these numbers mean something.

[Mark]

Oh here's another possible clue - On the title page of the Bad Wolf site clicking on the moon takes you to the Revelations page, but the rest of the image isn't active. On all other pages clicking anywhere on the image takes you back to the title page. Bad Wolf may have something to do with the moon - which has obvious lycanthropic connotations - but also in the episode Bad Wolf there was a penal colony on the moon. I wonder if this points to anything.

[dave]

good point! that is the same page as the comment about the name beowolf being derived from a word meaning either "criminal" or "cursed one". maybe whoever badwolf is was held there. which of the developed charicters could have been imprisoned in a moon penal colony?

I think i would be a bit dissapointed if the dalek from "dalek" returned. I think it would seem a bit contrived after it had its nervous breakdown and destroyed itself. It seemed to have been irreparibly tainted with rose to have been even vaugely interested in destroying the universe. It woud have had to somehow opull itself together, maybe the invasion of earth is part of its "mid-life crisis". perhaps it has gone out and bought a motorbike and has begun gettinginvited to wife swapping parties as well?. Though i do like the suggestion that rose's dna is what needs to be chopped out of the stomach big bad wolf, but it only works if it is that one dalek.

[dave]

oh, does anyone know what was revealed in the sun today? all i saw was that he "died" and regenerated, butnothing about the storyline that lead to it at all?

[dave]

23-6-801 read as a date would be 23, june, 801AD, in the saxon era of english history, a possible beowulf reference? have checked out the date, but can only find any relevance in that it was the day after the summer solctice in 801AD. not much use at all, but possible start date for divergence in time lines? doesnt fit too well with anything else we know though.

[GC]

Unless it means the year 236,801. I mean, if you've travelled all the way to the year 200,000 it's not that much further to go.

[dave]

BEARLY AROUND THE CORNER ;)

[dave]

just seen the latest trailer for satday. seems as though there is a deadly signal that could be broadcast from satelite 5 that will wipe everything out. Possibly why the station is taken over by teh daleks and not a direct attack on earth.
Also, in the clip there is a scene with a screen that the daleks are ranked in front of. screen shows what looks to be a giant human brain on a pedestal fed by dozens of pipes.

[dave]

any way of droping it onto this site?

[dave]

actualy, other than a HUMAN brain, it could resemble a califlower florette. cheese sauce anyone?

[dave]

and am guessing that dr stays on sattelite whilst blowing it up and traps rose in tardis to save her. Just going by that trailer

[Phil Perry]

Thankfully, I've been so busy at work for the last few weeks that I've been able to resist all temptations laid before me - except for the TV trails which at least don't give anything away other than atmosphere. There's a Radio Times buried under a pile of paperwork on my desk, there's a high speed internet connection making all of the information just a click away, there are newspapers everywhere delighting in puffing up their knowing chests... and I'm avoiding all of it. I’ve just received an e-mail from a friend warning me to ON NO ACCOUNTS READ TELETEXT which has now exterminated much of the surprise for him, so beware!

It seems increasingly likely then, that the number sequence is something significant to the narrative rather than a production joke. It's amazingly subtle, and although I spotted most of the Bad Wolf references on transmission, I didn't make any of those Room 801 or bus stop or whatever associations first time over. Do we assume that the numbers are part of the same process which has planted Bad Wolf all over the universe? Have the Doctor and Rose been recognising them? And do they appear in the novels? I'm liking the idea of it being a date, but as to how it figures... I give up!

All I need to do now is get through tomorrow without somebody phoning me up and saying, “It says in the TV guide that...” at which point I’ll… Well I don’t know, but perhaps I should just go out and bury the phone tonight!

By the way, I hate to be the person who’s always writing in with concerns over the weather, but it’s going to be thirty degrees tomorrow! I’ll be watching what might just be the best ever episode of Doctor Who in a state of somnambulistic exhaustion while the rest of the country is probably outside MISSING IT!

Argh!

[Phil]

Hmm, okay scratch my comment on the trailers. From Dave's comment it looks like today's is quite revealing so I'm going into hiding as of tonight.

Good luck, everyone...

[dave]

the irony is, although i seem to have been wasting sooooo much time at work typing messages to this board about what is happening, the call of beer and my rugby club dinner will prevent me from watching the final show. thank god for bbc 3 repeats

[dave]

beer-wolf seems to be controling my genetic make upo.

[Paul Songer]

my brother is a dead man. check out this (edited and censored) IM convo.

dnkpets (16/06/2005 21:58:34): SPOILER REMOVED it is then
the_crow_the_dark_assassin (16/06/2005 21:58:55): shut uuuuup
dnkpets (16/06/2005 21:59:15): seen it in newspaper
the_crow_the_dark_assassin (16/06/2005 21:59:39): F£%$ OFF
the_crow_the_dark_assassin (16/06/2005 22:00:29): SPOILER QUEEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dave]

huh?

[Matt Volatile]

Interesting addition to the Adam or Davros debate - isn't the chip in Adam's forehead in the same place as Davros' eye? Could the Doctor have inadvertently created Davros?

[GC]

Giant brain? That explains it! It's THE RANI!!!

"I have the loyhargil - nothing can stop me now!"

Actually, Dave's idea of the Doctor regenerating after being caught whilst engineering an explosion is like the original ending that Pip and Jane Baker wrote for "Time and the Rani". (They had to change it when Colin Baker refused to take part in the story!)

[dave]

its obvious now! rose's mum is the Rani regenerated!

[dave]

and of course what would be a more unpopular villan than califlower (appart from perhaps tinned ravioli)

[GC]

Talking of 80's villans and cauliflowers...

... THE VERVOIDS!!!

[Gary]

If Adam sent the Nanobots back in time to the forties to re-engineer the human race, then surely his parents would have been altered before his birth, meaning he was altered and that's a paradox (I think)????

[dave]

yes, your right, but i think he would realise this. he may have engineered them to spread within the human race until such a time as they were required to activate, i.e. a time beyond that which he was born and that he was in reciept of the technology? If he came into possesion of a chula ship filled with the things he would have time to find out what they were, use them to prolong his own life, and, when captain jack arrived in his lap he concoted a plan to use them to re-engineer the past. Jack had 2 years wiped from his mind and was brainwashed to deliver the ship and the hospital ship to 1940, giving them enough time to percolate throughout the human race. The victorian maid saw badwolf in rose because it had already happened and the nanobots were already within her, but were not recieving a signal to activate them until a time in the dit future.

[dave]

distant, not dit!

[dave]

oh, and WW2 was the chosen time because it would attract less attention when the hospital ship crashed. In a later time it would hav ebeen noticed, or examined more carefully. WW2 also gave an opertunity for the evidence to be destroyed by a real bomb. London the chosen place as the worlds most populous city at this time, giving the nanogenes the greatest oppertunity to spread.

[GC]

But is was Jack who parked the Chula ship in WW2 London where a bomb would hit it. I know he's missing 2 years of his life, but that was some time before "The Empty Child". Unless, of course, he's still working Bad Wolf now, just pretending to be the Doctor's ally... but then he doesn't behave like it even when he's alone.

[dave]

if adam wiped his mind in, say 20,000AD (or whatever yer sattelite 5 is in) and "re-programmed " him to take the chula ship back to the past for him. He was after all a time agent originally and may have been on a mission of some description before adam discovered him by chance and decided to use him and his time travel technology to implement his plan. if the nanogenes had been started in the 1940's Adam would have picked up on them when he was plugged in on satelite 5 and realised his destiny which, in effect, had already happened. Maybe this is a paradox?

[Martin]

How about this one for a fairly tenuous link?

Just been reading the link from :

http://www.badwolf.org.uk/revelations.html

On the link about werewolves, i.e.

http://www.collasius.org/LITERATUR/04-HTML/wolf-werewolf.htm

There's a quote which says :

The Hittite says this:

If anyone abducts a woman and if those who go after/behind, three persons or two persons, are killed, there will be no compensation. You have become a wolf. UR-BAR-RA.

How about that? Rose is abducted?

I dunno, sounds quite plausible....

;-)

[dave]

just saw it last night. very dissapointed, story seemed so contrived about the whold daleks having survived thing. how did the "Dalek" not notice a mother ship floating not far off? how did the dalek control satelite 5? seemed to be big holes in the plot and wasnt that impressed by the whilc dalek god thing. oh well.

[Phil]

Ah, at last the final piece of the puzzle. This is up on www.bbc.co.uk/cult/news/drwho/2005/07/06/20444.shtml

"And, for those who asked, 23-6-801 started as a mistake on the Psalm board in episode 8, and became a bit of misleading fun. But thanks for all your theories on that one."

So no significance to anything at all then!